Carl Edwards, Criminal?

[Paul Goldman]

My personal dislike for Edwards notwithstanding, and, evidently a shared sentiment amongst Cup drivers, is it out of the question to suggest Edwards
could be tried on some sort of assault charges?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81941

That Atlanta nudge, which he happily admitted to committing was not only financially stupid--a mess for his sponsors and team, it was also incredibly dangerous to Keselowski, and, potentially the crowd watching. And other nearby drivers. In that Video, Keselowski doesn't jaunt out of his car a Ricky Bobby it across the finish line; he clearly had his bones rattled.

I don't know law, but in my :30 Wikipedia review of assault, Edwards ticks all the boxes for a solid case.

Short of a jail sentance, he should at least be fired from his team.

[chopperdave]

I agree with Joe Costello that Edwards should have been suspended for at least one race and fined. these people coming into the cup ranks do not have the same skill or instinct like the old guys. Earnhardt, Waltrip, Allison, Wallace. they COULD nudge and run without causing a catastrophe. Granted I still agree with NASTYCAR backing off the drivers but Carl went way over the line.

[Touchette]

I'll agree that Carl was wrong in choosing to punt Keselowski when he did, the conditions weren't quite right (as was seen). It was not, however, assualt. It'd be the same as a MMA fighter pulling an illegal move in a fight. I don't believe either qualify as assualt, more like cheating or poor judgement at the least. I don't disagree with Carl's code either, eye for an eye, but it needs to be enforced a little differently in the future. Racing's a give and take sport and IMO Keselowski hasn't gotten it down yet, and he's going to get pounded for that. Again though, it should be in a more controlled/able time and place.

NASCAR as shown with the penalty handed out, that they are going to be much more lax in penalizing drivers for in race incidents (as opposed to the last couple of years in which the the Kevin Harvicks and Robby Gordon's received their large penalties). I think it's a good thing and we can go back to the rough and tumble racing that NASCAR has traditionally been. This isn't Formula 1 or Indy, these guys are driving bricks that are designed to withstand some contact. We need more things like Carl's arcade style dash for first last year.

Paul, I disagree that the other drivers in the Cup garage share your disdain for Edwards. Many of them disagreed with what Carl did, but that doesn't mean they dislike him.

[Insighter]

Carl didn't try to 'nudge and run', he was trying to wreck him, take him out of the race. After all it wasn't for position.

As for assault, in a sporting event you rarely can be charged for activities. It has GOT to stay that way, otherwise you'll have hockey players headed to jail every night...

[Touchette]

Originally Posted by Insighter

Carl didn't try to 'nudge and run', he was trying to wreck him, take him out of the race. After all it wasn't for position.

This may not have been directed at me, but it appears it had the most effect on my post.

I didn't say he tried to nudge and run, it was retaliation for last year and the events earlier in the race. I don't have a problem with the fact that he nudged him, the fact that he (Carl) was out of the race anyway, Keselowski was pushing for a top 10 finish, the location on the track and subsequently the speed they were at and then still nudged him is what I don't like. I have no issues with the idea, but not the application.

[Paul Goldman]

Thoughtful commentary here in the NASCAR section of Paddock.

I wonder what would happen if Keselowski's car went really wrong and Keselowski was hurt or killed. Really, legally could he be charged in that case with something? There must be a indemnity clause in their NASCAR contracts.

I didn't mean to suggest in a previous post that all drivers don't like Edwards. I've had the great fortune of chatting with a few Cup guys--outside the context of a racetrack. And I found it curious that they shared a similar negative sentiment towards Edwards. Maybe it's his teeth?

Interestingly--and I find this equally curious, they seem to think Scott Speed's a good, sensible driver and a decent guy to hang with.

[MSulka]

Edwards/Keselowski & Roush/Penske will soon have this resolved.

They are all meeting together.

I agree with a one race suspension.

If a robber enters a store with a gun, and MEANS to shoot the owner in the arm, but misses and hits the heart, he still gets charged with murder.

To me its not about intent, its about the law of un-intended consequences.

[cptkablamo]

I also have to take issue with the intent - if you intentionally cause an accident, you do not belong in a car - none the less a race car. I don't care if your name is Ayrton Senna, Nelson Piquet Jr, Mika Salo (did it in ALMS) or Carl Edwards.

Plus this is not the first time these things have flown...you can't say I didn't think it would get airborne. They have before and will again. What Edwards did was dangerous and what Nascar did in response was beyond belief. Without any actual penalty for this (just don;t do it again for 3 races), Nascar have sent out a message and I hope it doesn't result in serious injury or death of a competitor, official or fan.

[MSulka]

Mr. blamo...

Taking people out in NASCAR has long been an acceptable form of resolving conflict. This isn't the first time, nor will it be the last.

OW is different in that respect, it has always been frowned upon.

[cptkablamo]

just cause it has always been done doesn't mean it is right...but I do know I am in disagreement with many Nascar fans on that one

[diamonddave]

the only thing criminal is the nascar/france's family system of justice.
where a driver/team gets penalized more for having a smaller spoiler or bigger engine - then a driver who goes out and wrecks somebody and brags about it to the media

[Touchette]

It only takes a controversy to get this section going...

Ah, gotcha Paul. I would agree though that Carl's public image is quite different from who he is to the drivers and those actually in the know. It seems he really isn't as much of a "good guy" as his public image has generally portrayed, that I will also agree with.

If Keselowski had died, because of the fairly obvious intent it's possible Edwards could have been charged with something, but the hands alone probably aren't enough to really have a case and I'd suspect he would have responded differently to the situation if the kid died. Otherwise though I'm sure there is some form of protection, at least in accidental situations, usually negligence on the part of one party is an acception though.

Blamo, I geuss for me racing isn't all cut from the same cloth (cliche I know, but it works). NASCAR is not a refined racing entity like most OW series, ALMS, et al. It is a good 'ole boys, rough and tumble, bump and grind style of racing wherein you do whatever you can to win. It's trashy and built for the bottom of the economic food chain crowd, but it's usually exciting. F1 has the technology factor, supposedly, behind it that adds a level of excitement, NASCAR isn't supposed to have that. Thus I'm saying NASCAR racing w/o some bumping isn't NASCAR racing, and everyone on the track knows that if you bump you're usually doing it to screw the other guy up (whether that be getting him loose or crashing him), or using him to keep you from screwing up.

Dave,

It is stupid that small, particularly unintentional, tech. or mechanical deviations from the rules are so heavily penalized compared to driving infractions. That said, NASCAR was always supposed to be about the drivers, not so much the cars. NASCAR is attempting to let the drivers start from relatively the same spot, so it's up to the drivers and crews and their skills to actually succeed. Some people keep comparing Edwards' penalty here, to penalties from last year and the years before. I don't think that's a fair comparison. It looks to me like NASCAR is going to be much, much lighter with the penalty stick this year and I would bet that it will transfer to the mechanical side of things too. Though, mechanical violations will still probably be followed by larger penalties than driver infractions.

[Insighter]

Originally Posted by Touchette

It is stupid that small, particularly unintentional, tech. or mechanical deviations from the rules are so heavily penalized compared to driving infractions. That said, NASCAR was always supposed to be about the drivers, not so much the cars.

Maybe you can explain why Dale Jr was fined 100 points for saying 'sh*t' then.... and what Carl did doesn't necessitate points penalty.

[cptkablamo]

I appreciate your point there Touchette - but surely there has to be a line...how can you come back out to the track 100+ laps down and wreck someone?

[Paul Goldman]

Originally Posted by Insighter

Maybe you can explain why Dale Jr was fined 100 points for saying 'sh*t' then.... and what Carl did doesn't necessitate points penalty.

I think your point is really the crux of it. There's no logic.

I suppose the upside of authoritarian rule is it's efficient. The France's make it up as they go along. Unlike the FIA, where guys in suits sit around and legislate, and still make it up as they go along, but less efficiently. Like the McLaren wing--which is F1's very own Carl Edwards ruling.

P

[NeverLift]

for real, meaningful penalties. To spin out the leader on the last lap of the g-w-c finish, when you KNOW there is a huge cluster of cars -- all of them, in fact, -- doing close to 200 right behind you . . . criminal? That's a legal term. Whatever.

It is totally unacceptable. If NASCAR doesn't provide for major penalties, they are worse than derelict in their duties; they are accomplices after the fact.

What I propose:

1. A multi-race suspension -- at least 3, preferably 5. In short: Edwards, no way you are going to make the chase. Live with that, think about it, and change. Do it ever again -- not just this season, but EVER -- and your NASCAR license is cancelled, permanently.

2. A fine. Actually, damages; ask every team whose car was damaged or totalled by that idiot to prepare an invoice of how much they are spending to repair/replace their machine. That's the total fine. It will be huge.

Don't care if Edwards pays personally, or his car owner, or his sponsor. BUT: UNTIL IT IS PAID, HE DOESN'T GET TO TURN A WHEEL IN ANY NASCAR EVENT. Period.

Don't tell me that that approach will mean any driver that makes a mistake and causes a wreck will be liable. Or two cars rubbing and bumping as they compete will call for action, even if they spin and others hit them as a result. That's racing. Quite different.

Only those that deliberately cause wrecks -- and it's obvious as it was here -- will be hit, hard -- preferably hard enough to cause their retirement. They are not wanted, not by the drivers, not by the race fans. The demolition derby fans can stay away.

It's called "accountability."

[diamonddave]

I still feel if they (nascar) wanted to make a statement - take away the victory/points