Flavio's ban overturned - & he plans to sue?

[IndyAndy]

"Flavio & Pat are free to return"; says a French court:

skysports.com

... and he's thinking about going after the Piquets!

telegraph.co.uk

[MSulka]

Personally, this is the right call.

I know there are those that don't agree, but it was a mere one-race advantage, and the real element of 'danger' was insignicant IMO. And the move didn't guarantee the win for Alonso, Massa's pit crew did if I remember correctly.

I wonder how much of a ban it would have been to finish second ?

In fact, I would categorize this much the same as Schumi's Monaco parking incident to secure pole.

[skidmark]

Originally Posted by MSulka

Personally, this is the right call.

I know there are those that don't agree, but it was a mere one-race advantage, and the real element of 'danger' was insignicant IMO. And the move didn't guarantee the win for Alonso, Massa's pit crew did if I remember correctly.

I wonder how much of a ban it would have been to finish second ?

In fact, I would categorize this much the same as Schumi's Monaco parking incident to secure pole.

I would think there's a large difference between the parking incident (which caused a yellow flag and took away everybody's last gasp at gaining pole) and ordering someone to crash a race car in order to gain track position during an event.

First off, the degree of danger of possible injury was much higher in the Piquet incident and therefore merited a stiffer penalty. Was the outright ban warranted? I don't think so, when the advantage to Renault could have been taken away by a fine comparable to what the company earned from the points based revenue share gained by the win.

The FIA could have just as easily DNQ'd the two cars, demanded the return of the trophies (and the funding that went with them) and left Renault to figure out how to wipe the egg off their face after all was said and done.

It was a deliberate attempt to fix the outcome of the race - much like a trainer ordering his prize fighter to take a dive - and the last thing the FIA should want is a penalty that may leave others with the impression the penalty for trying to rig an outcome like that might not outweigh the risk of being caught.

I still think the race management ban was a case of overkill. Afterall, these are grown men and they should be able to decide whether they still want to do business with a known cheater.

[cptkablamo]

I have no issue with the overturning of this ban because the FIA process to come to it was corrupt and illegal. The same was with Ron Dennis - and it is a shame that he never got this chance to clear his name.

The FIA had no grounds to never let Flav and Pat be involved in F1 again. They are not F1 members - Renault is. Renault handled it in-house. The issue of vicarious liability should have extended to Renault.

And as for doing business with a known cheater - everyone cheats in the sport. And everyone does business with a known cheater.

Otherwise Hamilton wouldn't have a job. Schumacher, Flav, Pat, Ross Brawn and co wouldn't have had a job past 1994.

Senna and Prost wouldn't have had jobs. Tyrrell would have had to shut up shop decades before they did.

The sport wouldn't exist. Now I don't condone it, but dealing with it in an illegal and corrupt manner is also not the way to fix the problem.

[MSulka]

Skid... I would simply argue that Schumacher's position at Monaco was much more precarious than that of Piquet at Singapore. Schumacher was in a blind spot on the outside of a turn and blocked the entire track. Piquet was on the inside off-line.

These drivers are professionals with those cars and Piquet had already proved an expert at finding the limit and going over it. So spinning at Singapore.... and brushing the wall... Not so hard at all.

I think Symonds and Briatore have had enough punishment... kicked out of their jobs at Renault. Renault were scorned. Sponsors quit.

It's time for this to go back under the rug.

Except for the fact that Piquet escaped punishment for blowing the whistle on his OWN plan... Pat Symonds has been truthful when confronted about this incident.... and one other witness also claimed it was all Piquet's idea. That's the real scandal IMO.

[skidmark]

Originally Posted by MSulka

I think Symonds and Briatore have had enough punishment... kicked out of their jobs at Renault. Renault were scorned. Sponsors quit.

On that point I think we are agreed.

Originally Posted by MSulka

Except for the fact that Piquet escaped punishment for blowing the whistle on his OWN plan... Pat Symonds has been truthful when confronted about this incident.... and one other witness also claimed it was all Piquet's idea. That's the real scandal IMO.

...and I can't argue with that.

Still amazed he's even being considered for a seat with Campos, even with daddy waiving suitcases full of money at the team.

http://www.skiddmark.com/piquet-jr-s...-grid-in-2010/

[chopperdave]

I was really shocked that planning an accident of any kind by any of them was crazy. thats a real danger to everyone, very similar to schumacher at monaco. somone will quickly scoop up symonds. as for flav...I really don't see any team going for him.

[RacerX]

Originally Posted by chopperdave

as for flav...I really don't see any team going for him.

I don't know about that.

As skid said, Piquet Jr. is said to be in the running for a Campos drive. Hard to believe that any team would trust him again after this episode, not to mention he never panned out to be much of a driver either. I think Flavio can bring alot to a young team, far more than Piquet, so I can see Flav back in the paddock for someone real soon....

[Insighter]

I see Flav back too, even though I'd rather not (too much of a conflict of interest and he's a scumbag in my opinion).

The racing world is a small one, and Flav has a lot of clout. He'll be back somewhere if he gets the ban overturned.

[Touchette]

Originally Posted by Insighter

I see Flav back too, even though I'd rather not (too much of a conflict of interest and he's a scumbag in my opinion).

The racing world is a small one, and Flav has a lot of clout. He'll be back somewhere if he gets the ban overturned.

Again I'm with Insighter. He may not be back in the same capacity as with Renault, but he'll be back with someone within the next couple years.

[Paul Goldman]

Originally Posted by MSulka

Personally, this is the right call...
I know there are those that don't agree...

Uh Sulk, you just winding everyone up right? You know Flav's a turd in the F1 punchbowl and no one wants him around, not even Todt.

The actions he and Symonds took are uncontested by this French court. He's guilty of the crime. Flat out cheating to secure a win. Imagine if Piquet failed to bin his car without incident? What if a piece came off the car and hit a passing driver in the head? Never happens?

So that leaves the punishment. Set aside the fact that the FIA don't like him, no one likes him. Heidi Klum doesn't like him. Never mind that under his leadership both Benneton and Renault were caught red handed for a multitude of cheats. And let's simply focus on the nuts and bolts of what allowing him to stay does to the reputation of the sport. Wreck your team mate's car so you can secure a win? Fix a race. A race that costs $20 million dollars per team per race? Hmmm.

Sulka, by allowing Briatore to remain, you suggest that it's acceptable to fix a race. That even having one of your drivers wreck his car to secure the other driver's win--an illegitimate win, is acceptable.

Meanwhile in another series let's allow a driver who is suspected of smoking crystal meth before races to continue as well, since, after all, it didn't affect the outcome.

P

[Touchette]

I want to point out that the article doesn't dispute that he was guilty of a major rules violation, just that the FIA was not legally allowed to punish Briatore in the way they did. They can still effectively ban him from the sport by not granting licenses and permission to those that associate with Briatore, though they'd probably have to make a rule change to reflect that Briatore's involvement with an individual or team is not acceptable.

It actually punishes the team or driver directly and subsequently Briatore more indirectly. It would make it less worthwhile to work with the man.

[MSulka]

P

It was one race. Get over it.

Where's your diatribe against Piquet.... Remember... it was his idea. Confirmed by two.

M

[Paul Goldman]

Originally Posted by MSulka

It was one race. Get over it...Where's your diatribe against Piquet.... Remember... it was his idea. Confirmed by two. M

I'm surprised. Given you're one of the few who visit and contribute to this site regularly I thought you had more interest in the integrity of F1. I guess we just have to disagree on the fundamentals of sportsmanship and what differentiates sport from say, pro wrestling. Rules.

Indeed you're right; one race. One in which Massa was in the lead and leading the series. Following the incident, in which Massa's win was, (by all agreed accounts including this French court, and under admission from Flav and Symonds themselves) taken from him, Hamilton won the championship by 1 point. That one race was the deciding race.

The way I see that's what makes any sport great; the outcome of an entire season can be determined by one race, one pitstop even. A bad pitch. One missed foul shot. You lose the integrity of the rules that create that drama and you have roller derby.

As for diatribes, I don't care about Piquet, he has no influence on the sport. The team owner and race director are the people in charge. This has less to do with Flavio and more to do with where does one draw the line? Some would say race fixing is a pretty good place to start. And thus the message needs to be quite clear--as Todt wishes to reiterate, you cannot cheat, this way, ever. Not once. It's very damaging to the long term economics of the series. Not to mention the enjoyment of the sport.

[Touchette]

Originally Posted by Paul Goldman

Indeed you're right; one race. One in which Massa was in the lead and leading the series. Following the incident, in which Massa's win was, (by all agreed accounts including this French court, and under admission from Flav and Symonds themselves) taken from him, Hamilton won the championship by 1 point. That one race was the deciding race.

The championship is for a season, I think it's unfair to say this was the sole deciding factor in Massa losing the championship. It was definitely one of the deciding factors, but not the only one and it's not right to lay the blame for Massa's loss on Flav or Piquet's shoulders here. That loss is all Ferrari and Massa.

I'm not saying it wasn't right or doesn't matter. It does matter and Flav and Piquet should be punished, but the FIA can't punish Flav in the way they did. The FIA should find a way to punish Flav that is within the scope of its rules and power. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

[MSulka]

Originally Posted by Paul Goldman

That one race was the deciding race.


As for diatribes, I don't care about Piquet, he has no influence on the sport.

Paul, Massa lost this race all on his own. Re-watch the race, check out the pitlane follies at Ferrari, and also nearly ran into Sutil. To say the championship was lost because of Piquet's actions is quite silly.

Piquet's actions have certainly influenced the sport, no Piquet - the scandal would have never have happened. He's had more influence over this whole situation that ANYONE. He suggested the idea, he gave the FIA what they needed, and he got off scot-free.

[cptkablamo]

The FIA should find a way to punish Flav that is within the scope of its rules and power. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

This is where the issue is. No matter what Flav et al did, the process to decide their guilt was unfair and in the end unlawful.

Ferrari lost over a season, not a race. If there was cheating as alleged, it is still an infraction on the sporting regulations, not the technical regs, so it is difficult to say that such an action cost you the Championship. As for 'race fixing' - that's bollocks, tactics were used to try to influence a result, Alonso still had to drive the car for 3/4 of a race. How is this any worse then what Barrichello and Schumacher did - from a race fixing point of view?
I didn't see anyone get lifetime bans there.

[chopperdave]

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,1895...868762,00.html

FLav either has a really large pair or he's lost his mind..Im voting the nuthouse

[RacerX]

Originally Posted by chopperdave

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,1895...868762,00.html

FLav either has a really large pair or he's lost his mind..Im voting the nuthouse

The man obviously needs the money!

[Touchette]

Originally Posted by RacerX

The man obviously needs the money!

With these tough economic times who doesn't? Besides it's just business, maybe a little personal too, but Flav has the momentum and potentially a case. Now, is it right for him to do this? Probably not, but if I were in his shoes, I'd think strongly about suing.

[cptkablamo]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. This action by the FIA destroyed that business that made him millions a year...I wouldn't even say this case is 'frivolous'

[Paul Goldman]

Originally Posted by MSulka

Paul, Massa lost this race all on his own...Piquet's actions have certainly influenced the sport, no Piquet...He's had more influence over this whole situation that ANYONE.

Sulk, this is all opinion. Whether or not this particular race mattered as a determining factor for the outcome of the season is, as you indicate, subjective. We'll have to disagree.

To suggest Flav's not responsible because it was Piquet's idea is like one of my kids coming to me with the idea of shooting the neighbor's dog. If I gave the nod to shoot the dog, if I knew, then saying it was my son's idea to the cops won't be a very convincing case. I'm responsible. When the factory blows up killing the town, they don't point the finger at the idiot who pulled the switch; the owner is responsible for knowing and not having appropriate safety measures in place. This is standard legal, moral and ethical boilerplate.

The FIA cannot possibly allow a team owner, whether it's his idea or not to sanction, to consent to, to agree to, to order, to orchestrate fixing a race. The owner has to go. It simply boils down to the legitimacy and integrity of the sport.

Now, whether or not a French court, (er, no conflict of interest with Renault of course being a French constructor) can determine what the FIA is allowed to rule in their own sport is another story. Having had the torturous experience of working with the French, I have all the confidence in the world that they will side with their own. In which case, as both Todt and other have clearly stated, they'll simply grandfather another set of rules in to make sure Flav stays away. As he should.

P

[MSulka]

Number 1....

I have never said Briatore shouldn't be punished. I've always said the punishment didn't fit the alleged crime.

Number 2....

The only integrity there is in Formula One is win at ALL costs. That is the ONLY rule.

[cptkablamo]

Originally Posted by Paul Goldman

Now, whether or not a French court, (er, no conflict of interest with Renault of course being a French constructor) can determine what the FIA is allowed to rule in their own sport is another story. Having had the torturous experience of working with the French, I have all the confidence in the world that they will side with their own. In which case, as both Todt and other have clearly stated, they'll simply grandfather another set of rules in to make sure Flav stays away. As he should.

P

errrr...FIA is French too...and while it is one thing for a sporting court to be dodgy, to say the same of a national justice system of somewhere like France, is quite another

[Paul Goldman]

Originally Posted by cptkablamo

errrr...FIA is French too...

FIA is international. They hold their meetings in France. Sort of like the U.N.
As for this French court's ruling on Flav, if you read their findings they don't dispute the charge, they only say the the way in which the FIA handled the investigation and the means by which Briatore was notified were "unfair".
They put this onto Mosley; accordingly the FIA are not allowed to investigate upon and then judge themselves. An odd ruling, considering any other sport has a set of rules and if you break the rules, the governing body decides what to do with you. But not in France.

No matter, Todt is in the same camp as the rest of the FIA. The FIA will re-examine the charges according to French law and will do what they have to do it get rid of him once and for all.

If the ban is upheld, Flav may also lose his football team ownership too, QPR.

[cptkablamo]

As for this French court's ruling on Flav, if you read their findings they don't dispute the charge, they only say the the way in which the FIA handled the investigation and the means by which Briatore was notified were "unfair".

Yes - which is why an appeal can now be made under the French court system. This thing ain't over by a long shot...
And you will find that any sport has the right to appeal through the national law system in most countries. It just rarely happens as cases rarely have the amount of holes that this one did and the punishment was different. No 1 week bans here.

And the FIA operate under French law as their HQ is in France and France receives the economic benefit of such. All multinationals have a home base, the FIA in France.